Full Transcript

George Kamide:

This is the Zero Hour brought to you by SafeGuard Cyber. I'm George Kamide.

 

Ashley Stone:

I'm Ashley Stone.

 

George Kamide:

And today's guest is Anne Cornish, the general manager of RIMPA, which stands for the records and information management professionals of Australasia of professional association for records management employees in the part of the world that arguably has the strictest information governance laws on the planet.

 

Ashley Stone:

She brings so much passion and joy to a topic that people may assume to be less sexy, but she argues that it is very sexy. Um, information is power, and it's really interesting to hear the way she simplifies the complex tasks that records managers take off.

 

George Kamide:

Yes, and for our, uh, Australian and New Zealand listeners, there's a lot to learn here. She's got a great perspective. And then, uh, even for our other global listeners, there is a lot of parallel here between the problems that records managers face both internally and externally, and also those of security professionals so well worth listening. Um, but without further ado, let's get into it with Anne Cornish. Uh, welcome to the podcasts and Cornish. Thank you for calling in from Australia.

 

Anne Cornish:

Pleasure. Absolute pleasure.

 

George Kamide:

Um, great. So for the benefit of our listeners, you are currently the general manager at, uh, RIMPA, which is a big Australia Australasia professional services organization for records and information management professionals. Um, can you tell us a little bit more about RIMPA's mission at large?

 

Anne Cornish:

Yeah, sure. So as you mentioned, RIMPA is a trans Tasman organization. So we cover New Zealand and Australia. So we're the peak industry body for records and information management, um, besides advocacy, which is probably one of our core functions. We focus on obviously connecting and networking our members. And we also, um, have a major focus on professional development. And on top of that, we also like to expose our members to, um, vendors and they're vendor services. So that's one of our other core pillars. Now, our strategic plan that's RIMPA.

 

George Kamide:

When you say advocacy, could you, uh, elaborate a little bit on that? Does that, is that from a policy standpoint or trying to increase awareness of like the corporate governance level?

 

Anne Cornish:

I'll be honest with you in the last 12 months, my prime role in advocacy has been around the education space. So we've got quite a few universities at the moment that are looking at, from biz are using business decisions or business reasons I should say, actually offering the courses that have been on offer previously due to that lack of numbers. So RIMPA is working in with two other organizations, which is Australian society of activists and Alia, which is our library association. We've been working together collaboratively to try and work with the universities to maintain these courses going. Um, on top of that, we've also been working with, um, an organization called the associations for professions outside of the association for professional associations. And as you do, and we've been working with them and that's at a government level again in the education space.

 

Anne Cornish:

So it's about, um, especially through COVID, we've had some recent, I'd see about offering job placements, you know, when you kind of your courses to actually do as you know, on slight placements and during COVID, that hasn't been possible. So we've been working with the government to work, to decide how we can, um, uh, sort of offer a virtual type placements where they work on projects in a virtual environment. So to, so that they don't have to extend their courses. Um, and when worked through that, so that's the sort of advocacy I've been working primarily on the other types of advocacy that I do work with is when state records office do change policies, um, just to give you the Australian set up, we made up of numerous, um, States and territories and each one of them has their own state records act. And so, so my job is not just one it's it's multiplied by 8, um, which can make it quite difficult.

 

Anne Cornish:

And every time they change something way as RIMPA are often provided with an opportunity to comment on those policies or pieces of legislation. So I've had a couple of guys in the last 12 months as well, and I'm not saying major changes. We've had some, um, I'm sorry, some combinations or some combining, I suppose, or proposed combining of library services and state records services into one building. Um, so that means that it's about that's at the library and the state library and national archives or the state archives office in one building. And as you can imagine, some people are happy with that because that means that, you know, the library takes over and let the state records doesn't get all the glory and said that those types of things. So, yeah. So I'll probably go on about advocacy, George, but alright because that's taken enough off.

 

Ashley Stone:

Well, I love the way that you're talking about it. It's clear that you're, so you're very passionate about what you do. What, what brought you into this industry and what aspect of it you enjoy the most,

 

Anne Cornish:

The truth about being, what, what brought me into this issue? I actually just by default, I didn't choose it. Um, so the job, the deal was by mum when I was very young, um, was you ought to have a job where you go to school and the local council where we lived had a two week opening for a filing clerk labeled or not, when I was 16 years old and I never left that organization and ended up being the records manager and starting a Victorian records group and all the rest of it when I was there. And, um, it just formed a passion for it. So I never ever went back to school to do any besides school, but never actually went back. I was going to be an accountant, believe it or not. And I actually hired, I don't know what my, so yeah, so that was the deal.

 

Anne Cornish:

So I just really fell into it, loved it, um, worked in local government, really good grounding, the records managers, um, local governments, very diverse business here in Australia where they manage roads to community services, health services, animal management, regulatory services. So I really got a really broad range of records if that makes sense in a local government environment. Um, so that was sort of set me up for the rest of my, my career, I suppose, I guess. Yeah, very passionate. And I'll tell you my biggest passion is that I've always known that it's been the, the bottom of the ladder or the bottom of the rung here in Australia, especially when I started in the, I won't tell you what, the decade in the eighties, when I started, it was sort of deemed the area where you put the people, the employees that you didn't have anywhere else for them to go, or you put the new, um, junior students in a sorry, junior students.

 

Anne Cornish:

But I used to do it. That's what I started in is I got a job as a, um, used to have to put five juniors on that had just come out of school into government. And I just sort of put you into the records area and that's where I started. But my challenge has been and my passion has been to make it an escalate that profile all through the last 35 plus years. And I think we're getting there, it's taken a while, but I did it within the organization that I started in. So as I said, it was located in the basement and the records area at that council that I worked for after 10 and a half years ended up being fairly predominant and well-respected area. So that's always been my challenge.

 

George Kamide:

Yeah. And I think, I mean, we'll get to this in a moment for sure. But the new digital communication technologies basically produce communications that need to be recorded, but they produce it at such a volume and velocity that it's only natural that I think the profile of records management will, will come up because it's no longer operating at like here's an application, here's a paper on envelope. I mean, we're talking hundreds of thousands of messages conceivably a day in a single platform. Right. So being able to keep that straight is important, which actually brings me to the next question.

 

George Kamide:

So I would say it's pretty clear that the pandemic, um, has revealed a lot regarding the state of, uh, systems, institutions, healthcare, and otherwise we've seen some that were prepared and some that were under prepared, um, from the records management side, have you seen or encountered anything to, to form an opinion as to how ready organizations were, uh, to deal with sort of lockdown mandates or, or what have you?

 

Anne Cornish:

Um, I have actually. So during this, the COVID scenario, we've been very fortunate, I suppose. We're so sort of first of all, RIMPA and them in their own, right. Probably on delay, um, had to urgently put forward a virtual platform. So it was something that was always on the schedule or in strategic plan to do. Um, but we just probably was continuing with the fight mode face-to-face approach with things obviously COVID allowed us to escalate or to elevate that I should say. And we sort of engage in a virtual press platform really quickly, which then allowed me to speak to a lot of whole lot of members in this period in this last eight weeks via trainings, we've been offering virtual training webinars and just even having virtual meetings with our branches.

 

Anne Cornish:

I would suggest that a very unprepared George to be quite honest, overall, I think they were like RIMPA, it was always going to happen and they will be, but don't think that let's be honest, no one was actually prepared for this top thing to happen, but everyone's had to sort of implement this more digital approach really quickly. So if I'm going to give you some positives out of COVID, I've been speaking to quite a lot of people over the last eight weeks that have said it's been a bit of a blessing in disguise because some of those areas that they were trying to work in that from a digital transformation point of view that were reluctant, or, you know, they said, no, they have been made to do it. I have had no choice. And now they're like, okay, you know what I mean? They're just doing it that way. So if there's been any positives, it's been you had to do it that way.

 

George Kamide:

Yes. And, um, we've referred to it as like a break the glass moment. And for sure, not just records, you know, companies that were hesitant in January, you know, called in March for global rollouts of technologies that they, you know, had always been on the roadmap somewhere, but they weren't quite ready to, to take the leap. And, um, sometimes someone just pushes you out of the plane, if you're ready.

 

Anne Cornish:

It's just, it's just changed everything. I mean, if you think about it, like people working from home, do you really need offices as in as much as oily as much office space is what you used to do. I'm still a bit of a believer in, um, the person having personal contact with, especially in meetings and especially when you're doing strategic planning and, you know, white boarding and all that sort of stuff. So, and I miss the personal contact, um, that working from home has been fine and we've all at the [inaudible] adapted to it, but I still think we, um, we're very, we're very, um, animated and we're very vocal and we're on the spurs sort of discussion. So when an issue comes up, they talk about it immediately rather than waiting for a virtual meeting, if that makes sense. So those sorts of areas that that type of arrangement I've struggled with it personally.

 

Anne Cornish:

And I know some of the staff has, is have as well. Um, but as I said, these kinds of things, as well as putting in this digital approach to things I think is going to make people look at a whole, whole different way of doing an operating, we will. We now offer, we've been offering virtual training from RIMPA and I used to fly around and, um, and offer it in person, which by the way, there was a couple of reasons for doing that, not just offering the training, it was about meeting the members, um, getting to understand, what they, you know, where they are, what, what sort of hindrances they face as being a member to RIMPA that sort of thing. So that's been a great experience, but now we're running virtual training and we're getting people from all over the world attended training, not just those eight people that I had in the room that was like headed in a remote places, regional Victoria or WA. So, cause imagine Australia is a very, very large country. We have lots of remote areas. This virtual approach now has just allowed them to be involved far more involved. So I don't know whether or not I need to travel around Australia is anywhere near as much in a plane as such, which is a very, it's huge cost saving for us. And it's cost saving for the people that attend because we don't have to charge anywhere near as much. So that's what we mean.

 

George Kamide:

Yes. And, and, um, you know, again, to speak to the virtual environment of work, you know, we have a client with 5,000 employees on Slack and in January, those people were producing around 60,000 chat messages a day that we are archiving for them. It is now 120,000 a day. So just the virtual work environment is a connected one, but it, it sort of rapidly accelerates the need. Because again, you can't walk down the hall and knock on the glass if you have time to meet, right. So you actually have to send these messages and like that level of communication grows exponentially.

 

Anne Cornish:

Yeah. And that's the problem with information in the digital world is it's just a spiraling amount or volume of information that I personally don't think the records and information management professionals and, and any of the professionals even IT I'd say are actually capturing or managing effectively, um, to the point where I think it's just going to get, if it's out of control. So it's like when you go on to Google and you get hundreds of thousands of hits, and you're like, Oh my God, that's all too much. And you only look at the top five, you know what it's like, that's, what's done well, that's, what's happening in the, in the digital world is that we're just because we can, and it's easy. And in some instances it's not managed very well. And then you put, you know, uh, you know, put products on the front of it that allows you to have a portal into every damn system that you've got in your organization to find what you're looking for.

 

Anne Cornish:

What I'm saying is we're just spiraling information. We're not managing it effectively. And think we're putting our organizations at as well by taking far too much. Um, and this pandemic is going to prove that because lots of things that I probably would have just verbalize to my staff, I've probably now put in an email giving direction. Not that I'm saying I've said anything wrong, but if they ever want to get me on it, they can go, well, here, you said. Um, and I think that's just going to happen across the board. So yeah, I seen that lots and lots of information now. And the other thing that, I'm sorry, I'll talk to the answer. You keep, you kept asking, sorry, George, I'll take it.

 

Ashley Stone:

No, no. It's great to hear. You have to share please. Yeah.

 

Anne Cornish:

That one of the biggest challenges besides digital digital transformation that I've seen over the last, however many years is that records management and including right now is what happened when I first started records management was done by the records people and only the records people. It was a very paper environment, lots of manual tasks. Um, it's a long, long, you know, worn out process. And then with the introduction of digital and word processing and all those and computers and what, having a computer and email on everyone's desks at that, that responsibility of reckless measures now evolve to everyone in an organization. So it's not just the responsibility of one or half a dozen people. Um, I think that's been probably the biggest change that I've seen. And I don't think we've done that very well either again. And when I say, wait, the records industry, I don't think we've managed or control that very well.

 

Anne Cornish:

We've just sort of let it happen and then trying to fix it after the fact. So there's sort of the flood gates have opened. And then we've tried to sort of reign it back in and start to say, we're going to manage introduction of email. Everyone thought that email was going to be an informal, general chat type approach to things. Well, that's not the case. We're making major decisions on email, um, the introduction of, um, social media and those sorts of things. It's just that that's been let go. And that we have not capturing that effectively even web pages and that sort of stuff with internet. Um, I just don't believe that we as records in the records industry have been quick enough or in touch enough with the technology to stay ahead. Sorry. So the development just natural thing to happen. Sorry, Ashley go.

 

Ashley Stone:

you're, you're calling out really great points and highlighting that visual communication channels have changed everything. And I think this is really relevant to the point you made about raising the profile of records management and how vital it is to an organization with the explosion of these interactions. So if you, from the records management perspective, see this problem and understand it, but how do you talk to other parts of an organization and explain, explain that to them?

 

Anne Cornish:

Well, that's the hardest thing that we've probably ever had to do. Well, we're still doing, and like I said, I don't think we've done it very well. First of all, we've got to remember, we've got to take ourselves out of the basement and that, that perception that we're just sort of the bottom rung of the ladder of staff, so then you've got to have this note, not enough credibility to actually get your message across initially devolving out with the digital devolving at the function that makes you even less worthy or less needed. I suppose you could say, so some organizations looked upon records going, why do we need you when everyone else's, when they're all doing it themselves. Um, so to get that through that, they obviously that the terms of such a things compliance and governance and those sorts of things have helped records and information managers, because organizations are starting to realize that you can't, they did that.

 

Anne Cornish:

They devolved it out. It was an absolute mess. They realized now that does need to have some controls over. It does need governance. It does need to be managed correctly. It needs rules It needs systems. It needs people who know what they're doing to actually manage and configure those systems and maintain those systems. So they records management records managers, um, set in my opinion, has grown exponentially in the sense of you, don't just need to be, you know, know how to use a retention and disposal schedule and how to use a classification scheme. You need to have an idea, You need to have some idea about it systems. And I think more importantly, that you need to have a good promotional marketing and presenters skills because you need to sell these ways. I, you need to sell out our profession to, to above and I, and I'm a big one.

 

Anne Cornish:

And you can imagine, because I don't mind talking, as you can tell, um, you just, you gotta be out there. You gotta be in their face, constantly in their face, telling them how important you are. You need to be involved in everything. You need to get yourself involved, whether people like it or not. Um, you know, I'm the records manager, I need to be involved in this meeting. I need to be involved in the purchase of that new software. I need to do - you need to market your services completely. So I think it's a whole new, and I think it's just as important as the technical side, that skillset of being able to present, market, the, the actual, um, the industry and the profession in its own right is important. And to sell it the only way to sell this I'm a big believer, tell, telling everyone they need to be compliant.

 

Anne Cornish:

That is so boring. Guys, the users do not care about this.

 

George Kamide:

This is actually an interesting conundrum. So this is the first time we've talked explicitly about records management. They're very clear parallels to cybersecurity, right? Cyber security. Often, those are the people who say no to everything. That's the IT bunch over there, but they have to get in people's face. And similar to what you were saying, these new technologies basically make security everyone's responsibility, because if you're the one who lets in the thing, you know, it's just as much about your awareness. Um, have you seen, um, any, when we're talking about these tools, have you seen any convergence between records and security? Because if you're talking about social media or you're talking about an internal collaboration thing, like Microsoft Teams, it strikes me that both records and security could be buyers. They could come to the table together because they are both going to need the same set of tools.

 

Anne Cornish:

Yeah, no. I was saying, seeing that, especially the last 12 months, and I know that's really sort of in the immediate stem of immediate time, which it is the security side. And as I said, the security and the records management and probably even some other areas, George are coming in under that governance space. So governance is a real trendy area, which anything security, probably sits a bit higher than records management on the, on the ladder gain. Um, but they definitely have converged together. They have to. Um, but like you say again, devolved out now to the business because we've got sisters advice to allow you to do that. And I still think there's risks involved there and I'm still not sure where managing all the security, records management from the governance end, I suppose, effectively, in my opinion, that's what I'm saying.

 

George Kamide:

Yeah. That's helpful. Um, so I wanna change gears just a little bit, um, uh, on, uh, you had mentioned that RIMPA had adapted its office and that you had increased your virtual trainings has, what else has been doing as a means is continuing business through, through the lockdown.

 

Anne Cornish:

Uh, so obviously webinars, we didn't conduct any webinars that were on the road, not to do me. If you have any of those, well, they've been unbelievably accepted. Like we've got, we're having them every Wednesday. Um, so we started off with a virtual platform, offering them for, for no cost to our members, which is great. Um, and that can I be honest with you. That was also for us to get used to running these webinars and getting the hang of it. Transparency. Yeah, absolutely. So we thought, you know, let's offer them for free. While, we're doing, working it out ourselves. Um, the chain here have been sensational and they're getting everything organized. Um, but besides the purchasing and understanding the software, they spend a lot of time per week actually training the presenters that are coming up each week. Like, how do to use the software?

 

Anne Cornish:

I mean, cause it's so new to everyone. Very rarely do we find someone that goes, Oh no, I've done webinars before and I'm gonna use this because it's just, that's not the case. So the girls are spending the day, the staff is spending a lot of time doing that. So we've had a really big uptake, but interestingly enough, we've tried, we've been doing those for about a month next week, we've got a paid webinar, so it's going longer than an hour so that we justify charging for it. We need to look at revenue. Um, and we've been, it's been great. It's been really well received. So we know then, but so far I think we've got over 60 people registered. We know those 60 people will attend because they've been they've paid as well. So where, you know, when you get a free webinar and 150 people register pretty much bank on about 50%.

 

Anne Cornish:

Yeah. But when they start paying, which is good. So when we've got some really good speakers next week, which is great. Um, so that a bit more high level, like the national David Fricker from national archives Australia, we've also got Richard from New Zealand in the same position. So get that sort of higher level and we're offering. So yes, we'll see how it goes, but yeah, for doing trainings that fill out the virtual trainings being there, when I say the killer, it's just, we can't keep up good how's I can do it wherever they are. It doesn't matter anymore. And I think being at home, and I know this sounds silly because I certainly didn't have any more time at home. I had less time when I was working from home, but I think people that were in the government space, maybe they couldn't, they had to work from home for social distancing purposes, but their whole jobs, especially in records when you're opening physical mail and dealing with still dealing with archive boxes and that sort of stuff, couldn't probably complete their whole job. So they had more time to train. So we've had lots of people participate in training, which has been great.

 

Ashley Stone:

That's great. What a great opportunities for people. It sounds like you're doing great work to share all those resources and you know, while you're not getting to travel as much, I know you talked a little bit about how it's affected your work routine. What else has changed for you working during this time?

 

Anne Cornish:

Well, working from home, Ashley, I'm sure you guys find it too. There is no start at eight o'clock and finish at five o'clock time. I've noticed. So because it's only because I'm sharing my house with my husband as well. He's also working from home. So I'm on the dining room table and he's in the office, which is fine, but that means I moved from the dining room table to the couch to watch TV to the kitchen, which is to my left to cook dinner. So I'm not really going anywhere. So as soon as I hear the computer, beep I'll go and answer an email while I'm cooking dinner. Um, so for me personally, and I know the staff here at RIMPA because, because we were setting up new platforms, probably worked astronomical amount of hours. So we've moved back to the office today, guys today was the first day with regulations because we can, and I'm going to plan on working, maybe not a, or we've never, we don't do eight hour days, but you know, at least that'd be happy with a nine to 10 hour day instead of a 12 or 14 hour day. Um, cause we never left. You never leave the office when you're at home. That's I think that was my biggest issue. You never leave.

 

George Kamide:

for sure. The lines become very blurred, right. You're answering a Slack message and unloading dishes at the same time. Um, so we do, we do like to stay positive when we're talking about the pandemic. So do you have, um, a favorite memory of your time during lockdown? Some bright spot, a chance to connect with old friends or something?

 

Anne Cornish:

Ah, um, so some of my, one of my favorite memories is that instead of us getting to get a socially, cause we weren't able to for some weeks was, um, we do the, um, Zoom cocktail party on Friday night with all the girls, which was really good cause I've got friends all over Australia. So, and which I only see by me once or twice a year and that I've seen them more now during COVID than I ever had virtually obviously. So we catch up most Friday nights for a girl's drink. And then we've been playing couple trivia of every second Saturday with friends. So each group has, has the responsibility of setting up a five round 10 question trivia thing, which has been quite fun.

 

George Kamide:

I'm, fascinated by the human ability to adapt. And I think even our company is rather distributed on a normal basis. Like we have an HQ, but we have a lot of people out and about remotely and we have seen them more often than we ever would in terms of working in the office situation.

 

Anne Cornish:

And you know, what said, I was thinking we would come back with not finishing, but obviously it's, you know, getting better that we can start to say to those one. Them's worried now that those girls that are now been seeing every Friday night, that one lives in new South Wales and one lives in Victoria, I'll probably go back to seeing them once a year, which is a bit sad, really. So we, we, we sort of plan, we're going to keep up the virtual approach, but you watch. I'll be able to go out soon and be able to go down to a club or a pub and have a drink. So sitting at home, watching it on the TV, do you know what I mean? I't'll probably be the same. So, but from a RIMPA point of view let's say one of the biggest positives and it's been so good to, to demonstrate this to our, to my board, is this just engagement from our original members? Um, we've been very lucky here at RIMPA. We've actually picked up new members during COVID. So this very reason that dynamic, they have access to the services where they never did before. We're probably averaging about a new member a day, so about five new members a week and brand new members, brand new members, which has been great. Sorry, that's paid for virtual software guys.

 

Ashley Stone:

You had talked a little bit about how the records management industry has changed or what you've observed over the last 12 months, but I'm wondering where do you think the direction heading to next now that we're sort of steps of what we've seen in a pandemic or a little bit more adjusted?

 

Anne Cornish:

I think records and information managers need to, as I mentioned earlier need to really get their act together and use this as a, um, to their advantage and use it for the, to, to actually support any business cases, to move into a file or digital experience within their organizations. I don't know about you guys been in Australia that even though everyone's digital, there's lots of digital information. Most organizations, especially in the government sphere are still moving to actually manage it correctly, like having, having a program in place. So as you all know, everyone goes out and they scan a bit of this and they do a bit of that. But like I said, it wasn't managed and putting in that governance or that management program and systems to make, to work with that to sorry to manage all that information is really only commencing now and starting now, um, some organizations that are a little bit more ahead than others with the COVID I think this will just push it even quicker as in it will just make it happen. It'll come easier for the records people to allow it to actually have it happened to implemented.

 

Anne Cornish:

But I think we need to look at, um, I'll go back to that spiraling amount of information. I think records and records, managers need to, really look at what sort of information are we managing and how important and what the value of that information is to the organization. And that also comes back George, about the security as well, because, and I think records managers need to be involved in that at that level. I think we worry too much about low level mundane stock standard top stuff. That's got a short life span. Do you know what I mean? That sort of thing. It should be focusing on high value, high, high, high risk records, more than the, you know, the stock standard stuff. That's just comes in down day, day in, day out.

 

George Kamide:

And this is even compounded by the fact that for anyone who is listening to this episode, who is not in Australia or New Zealand, but these two countries have some of the strictest information governance laws on the planet, right? So the fact that there is a sort of a legal kind of sword of Damocles hanging overhead. It seems that it would compel records managers to be more proactive because an inquiry could come at any moment.

 

Anne Cornish:

Happens all the time happens all the time. And that's that - his sounds terrible. But can I tell you that's when records people are really important and they're really respected and credibility comes into play when there's a major inquiry in place or a Royal commission or whatever it is, we've had some children's services, Royal commissions of recent here in Queensland, as well as across Australia. Can I tell you record staff and now the most important people in the universe because they need to produce what's required.

 

Anne Cornish:

It's unfortunate that when sort of disasters or major issues like that occur, that's when records are actually recognized records, people recognized. So there's, there's goods out of it as well. Again, what I have seen over my time is that when those types of I'm going to call them disasters, when they happen, um, the records people do maintain the credibility and they looked upon very differently within the organization. And it escalates the market to the hierarchy.

 

George Kamide:

Is there a tension in that proactive versus reactive response? I think we've, I think we've established, it's kind of a two way street, right? The organization at large needs to kind of respect or re-imagine records rather than sort of the lowest rung, but the records people also have to step up. And, but, but is there, is there some sort of like cultural inertia in the industry about, you know, keeping quiet or being more re I'm trying to figure out,

 

Anne Cornish:

Oh, traditionally I don't know the way you are, you guys are but the way we are. Traditionally, as I said, the records paper were deemed, um, probably introverted. I'm very organized. You know, they're very anal OCD type people. You know, they'd like to keep things in order and don't get me wrong. Those skills are needed because that's what records management's about. It's about, you know, grouping and classifying that sort of thing. As a said, to actually get them out of the basement, let's call it that they needed to, we needed extroverts and marketing skills and being able to present and be confident. And I think, and I'm going to be honest, I think the most important skill that we have, and that's not a skill, but it's a personality trait is passion. They need to be passionate for what I do just to be throwing into duties, um, to be, you know, just made to do records management is not, it's not your forte will then you never, it's not sexy to you. So it's,

 

New Speaker:

I find it's very sexy, records management is quite sexy to me and it should be to all organizations. It's pretty sexy. Cause without it - information is power and knowledge and it's an asset which still hasn't got a value as we all know, but I'm sure it's highly valuable, but it's hard to actually put a value to it as I'm talking a dollar figure, but it's just, it's just so important because they can't function. And as I said, it's until a disaster occurs or something of some inquiry on some major issue occurs is when they start to realize it, they realize how important that records information, management is.

 

George Kamide:

Indeed. Yeah. I think we have a curious case very recently of a city in Australia, um, archiving their social media conversations. Right. And you can actually see in January, the city gets, you know, between November and January an average of 2.2, five messages a month on their Facebook page, uh, March through the present is 557 messages a day. And this is because city hall was shut down. So people couldn't call. But I'm curious, um, and this is pure hypothesis, but you know, as Australia reopens, it's sort of hard for me to imagine that people who suddenly got used to just being able to ping their requests. Here's a pothole on the street on Facebook that they're going to go back to the, to the phone system. Right. I feel like once that door is open, it's going to become an issue for other city managers because it's sort of a precedent has been set.

 

Anne Cornish:

Totally agree with George. I think that's across the board. It's not just even in our industry. I think you're right. I think we're very lucky to get you mentioned we're very adaptable and we get quite used to things quick, fairly quickly. So we're actually overall, we're pretty good with the change. I mean, it was forced upon us. We had to, but it's not different to, I was talking to people the other day, that own gyms and they've got major concerns because over the last eight weeks, people have been not paying gym fees and doing their own PT or gym classes in their own homes or with, you know, not supposedly, but with a friend or whatever it may be. I've spoken to that many people that have said that they're no longer going to pay those, you know, 10, 20, 30, $50 a week fees anymore because they don't need to.

 

Anne Cornish:

And the other things is obviously the economy's a bit, no one knows where that is going as well. So it's, everyone's saving money, but you're spot on in the sense of why would I bother now sitting on a phone and waiting for someone to answer my call when I can just ping look the pot hole or the dog's barking or whatever it is very easily through social media. And the good thing about it is it's fairly accessible. It doesn't matter what age group you're in. As long as you got some sort of technology experience, even on your phone. I mean, even the, the older generation can use their phones and use apps, which is what's been introduced here from a lot of like a lot of government, especially local government. It's an app basically where you can literally stand at the pothole George and take the photo and just click the button and it send it to them and then you're done. Do you know what I mean? That's not a hard thing to do.

 

George Kamide:

Yeah. I, I, I'm very intrigued by your death, your definition here, that we're a reframing of it. It's not records. It is fundamentally information. And I think that's what we've been talking to other companies about from a security perspective, that those conversations between employees or between employees and vendors, there is IP there, right? Those conversations contain information. That's critical to your business, whether it's just an agreement to pay a fee or, you know, some other, uh, more abstract discussion. And so if you can think about the information as the wealth records, managers are the, you know, the safe keepers or the lock pickers, depending on the need.

 

Anne Cornish:

Yeah. Those words all intertwined all the time. And maybe we think about there's records, there's knowledge, there's document management, there's data management, and you know what? You can go and speak at many, many different conferences. And everyone's got a different interpretation. I mean, they're all round about the same, but everyone's going to be to have a different interpretation of what they are. I like to use information cause I think it covers the broad spectrum spectrum overall, to be honest, it's really hard to describe. That's the biggest thing about, I hate trying to tell the people what's a record when I'm talking to tell people the users, because they just don't get it. They, everything, they do all the information I deal with today is records. That's what I think recordsd are information. So I've stopped. And I keep trying to explain to organizations, stop trying to define all this stuff, just manage information, manage it across the board, irrelevant.

 

Anne Cornish:

Whether it's a record or data or knowledge or whatever, just manage it across the board. Don't make your users or don't try and get your users to just distinguish which one it is to put it into a different system. It doesn't work that way because they won't do it. It's as simple as that manages over there. And I've seen it over the last five years and starting to think and get, stop trying to make the user or staff a records person or I really, I find with records, first of all, that I care. Secondly, it's a skillset that I think we is really an undervalued and unappreciated. It's a real skill set to be able to, to actually work in records and be able to do effective classification and retention and disposal, all those traditional records, these type roles. Um, and we're trying to put this out to the users and devolve this is task out there, and try to teach them to be that. And if that's not effective, it hasn't been effective.

 

Anne Cornish:

I mean the uptake of systems and the ability to apply that to security and all that sort of stuff. George is fairly low when you start putting it in the hands of everyone and not have focused it in a group, in my opinion. So what we need to do is we need to just make it really seamless or as seamless as we can. And as transparent as we can for the capture of this information into systems and the occupation of security and retention and all the rest of it. And hopefully that the records, people they're specialists in the back and they fix it up, I suppose, for want of a better word. They have mapped it and they deal with it and they get it to be managed correctly.

 

Anne Cornish:

Let's not impose on the user. The user doesn't care about that. I want an easy pick. We use network drives what we call network drives or a file server or whatever.

 

George Kamide:

No, you can't get in the way of the user or the experience.

 

Anne Cornish:

We've tried records. People tried for years to go off, we're going to get you to do the classification and you've got to pick the right and the right and the right. And they don't care just pick it that they just don't care. Yeah. Flogging a dead horse is my opinion. We're just like, let's move on records people and let's go with the business needs and work around it. So.

 

George Kamide:

Brilliant. That is a perfect spot to wrap things up, stick with the business needs. Thank you very much again for taking the time. It's been a pleasure.

 

Anne Cornish:

Pleasure is mine. Thank you. It's been lovely talking to you.