Full Transcript

George Kamide:

This is the Zero Hour brought to you by SafeGuard Cyber. We are here in San Francisco for RSA, but today we are recording live from foreign cinema in the mission, a lovely restaurant. And we have as our guest Vikrant Karvir currently CEO and founder of Pulse 42, but a veteran of the tech industry here in the Bay area. And we were going to get into his experience driving innovation growth and buy in across multiple stakeholders. Vikrant. Thanks for joining us.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Hey, thank you guys. Thanks for having me out here. Fantastic day out here.

 

Ashley Stone :

Yes, it's a beautiful day. We're happy to have you.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Thank you.

 

George Kamide:

Um so you have spent time working with just about every tech giant there is both from the consulting side at Deloitte and then over to Cisco and Brocade and Microsoft among many others and very, very impressive resume and experience and helping scale. And I think in one case turnaround a couple of PR pieces of those organizations. So I'm curious to understand how what have you learned about trying to drive innovation within much larger enterprises, which don't have a reputation as being particularly agile?

 

Vikrant Karvir:

That's a fantastic question. I mean, you know, I think I've made probably every mistake on the planet. Like mistakes probably made every mistake on the planet in driving this innovation. So lots of you know, whatever learning, it's a broader question, right? If I have to distill it down to a few things the first thing about innovation is a lot of it is essentially timing. Timing, and sensing what the market is, where the market is and essentially framing the context. Okay. so that's the first part and your capability as an innovator to frame that with your stakeholders, whether they are your peers, whether they are your stakeholders, whether they're your own teams is very critical. So that's the first part is how do you size up the situation? And as you size up the situation is the timing, right? You actually drive the innovation. Number one.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Number two is essentially, you know, what are the fundamental tectonic drivers that are essentially being created in your marketplace? They may be external. They may be internal. So having some sense of the act. So that's the second part. The third part is talking to people. You still ended up people's business, both internally and externally talking to people, conceptually, you know having discussions, fair amount of very candid discussions with the people who are consuming your products or services. And then the people who actually underground are building those out, having a sense and having kind of a pulse on what's going on between both sides is very critical. So that's a third thing.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

The fourth thing where I think I've made a lot of mistakes. In the past is when you then go and evangelize this through different stakeholders. One of my critical learnings, especially in large environments and it actually applies even in the world of startups is how do you pull up relevant data points? You may not have actual factual data because what you're trying to evolve towards is a future state. And in the future state, there are certain predictions that you can predict, but you don't have full sets of datas. Right. So how do you essentially look into the current, maybe a little bit of past, but project out in the future and have supporting data sets to support your hypothesis? That's something, to be honest with you, I have not done very well in my past. And you love to the trial and error, especially large, large cross functional groups. So that's one learning which is have relevant data sets to, you know, backup your concept back up your idea with different stakeholders.

 

George Kamide:

Were the mistakes that you cite there, mistakes in the type of data that you were presenting, or just how you contextualized it?

 

Vikrant Karvir:

It's a great question. Actually, a little bit of both, because what tends to happen is this has been my, are going on different tangents out here, right. But conceptually what's happening out here is you know, you know, it does a very driven people. You know, there's a lot of essentially intuition that you build up about market, about our teams, your organization, right, your customers. So there's intuition and there's a lot of essentially signals that you're picking up that you can't actually articulate. Number one. And number two is a lot of times your frame of reference, your framing of the issue is going to be very different from how people see the framing,

 

George Kamide:

Especially if it's a future state. They're not even looking through that frame right now.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Exactly, so, you know, maybe the highest order issue out here is, and this applies even in the world of startups, what is your mental frame of reference and what is essentially the frame of reference for the people, especially cross functional people that are coming into this. So it's very important to understand what different frames people have and what your frame is, because if our frames are not matching, you're just going to be colliding on frames. So that's number one. Number two is, you know, what are the past or maybe current factual data sets that you have? And then number two is how do you present that data set in that framing is something that internal, which is, you know, large company innovators, as well as external, like entrepreneurs need to learn how to do it. And we are constantly learning, right? So those are the, and number three is actually using that as a basis to get people onboard using that as a basis to people get onboard because innovation, you may have a large team. There are some fairly large, significant teams at PNLs that I managed when I was working in larger corporate and moments.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

But if your team really didn't understand, forget the other stakeholders, if your team really didn't understand what you're trying to accomplish and where you're headed and you can do as much powerpointing and I'll let you go, that's all good stuff. Right. But fun part, you know, it has to come from within. And, you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is you're to spend a lot of time actually bringing up people up to speed are understanding where you're going in their journey. And so they become a participant in the journey and helper in the journey rather than essentially pulling it back. Right.

 

George Kamide:

That's good. In trying to drive these innovations or enabling or securing new technologies have you established a pattern or a checklist? Like what are the milestones that you pass where you begin to see like, okay, now this is where people are getting on board or?

 

Vikrant Karvir:

I think my frameworks may not be very precise, but let me tell you what my instinctive frameworks are. I think the instinctive framework starts off with it's like this, whether it's essentially in a large environment like Cisco or Microsoft or other places, or whether it is in my current startup state, the first thing is as, as an entrepreneur, whether you are within the large company or a small company, I think it's very critical that you stop the noise in your head. And you're present in the moment. It's very critical because what tends to happen is if you are not present in the moment, there's a noise and there is a backdrop and, you know, going on in your head and that does not leave you open to opportunities that you may pick up in very simple conversations, because some of these things, like some of the most I'll give you, I, you know, a real example. A project in 2009 in one of the very large companies that I worked with there was a big debate going on. There were debates on two points actually at the executive level one is, is this cloud thing real? Yeah. This is, you know, fellowships debates between my peers. Yeah.

 

George Kamide:

Spoiler alert. It is. But yes.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

And the debate of like, Hey, data center, virtualization is cloud. Okay. So that's number one. And number two, if there is something like cloud, will people buy compute storage, you know, processing cycles from outside premise. It's never going to happen. People are never going to give up control security, privacy not going to happen. Right. So two big orders, right. It's kind of interesting. Right. So I remember we are having a dialogue in a restaurant in Palo Alto. And I was the exec sponsor for one of our customer environments. And we were sitting over there and somebody called up and the Western region territory manager got a phone call and he put it on the speaker phone. And one of his guys from Southern California had called him up and he said, guess what? My customer, it's a fairly well known customer in Southern California. They just brought 3000 servers from Amazon.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

What point is it may be as explicit, or it may not be explicit, but sometimes these tiny things that are happening around you as an innovator, you gotta be in a position to pick those up and hone in on this. So that's the first part of being open. Sorry. I got lost. That's great. More signal, less noise. Well yeah. Anyways, I think I lost my train of thought. So continue with your question.

 

George Kamide:

Well, I was just thinking like so that's, I like that from the individual innovator's perspective and trying to quiet the mind and be receptive to these signals that you may not be aware of until they show up, but institutionally inside the organization, have you seen or experienced kind of this checklist? Like I know if I can win that person yeah. Or if I know when they start asking these types of questions, that's sort of like, Oh, I've already gotten them over this threshold and now it's a, you know, I just have you established a pattern of being upset.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Okay. Okay. Sorry. I got lost in my train of thought. So the first thing is actually look for signals. That's number one. Number two is then what you want to do. At least that's what I've done. I'm sure that all the guys or gals who do a much better job than I do, but generally speaking for the innovator community, you know, what you tend to do is then you go out and validate it very rapidly and you want to do it fast because this is a lot of it is timing. And for that to happen, the frame of reference says, whether you have a big job or a small job, whether you have one report, a thousand report, it doesn't matter. You got to have an informal network, you got to have an informal network. And this is especially true. If you're an exec in a large company your real power comes from your informal network, how you can fit in the fastest.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

We reached the ground level on sales. You know, maybe the marketing, maybe the engineering across the organization quickly size up. Okay. Can I have 20 data points to figure out if what I'm sensing out here is happening or not? This happens as an entrepreneur too. There are 20, 25 environments. You want to quickly call and figure out, Hey, do you have, do you have this problem? Do you have this problem? So that's the second part. So the second part of this is acting on a signal and instinct to signal and seeing if this is true, sometimes it's true. Sometimes it's not true, but you do that. The third part is once you essentially established that there is a pattern emerging, then the third part comes don't waste cycles, collect data datasets. And here's one of the, you know one of the learning points is we are operating in a digital economy and in a digital economy what's happening out here is we are creating artifacts and monetizing artifacts.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

So the entire supply and the dimension is full of digital artifacts. But the question is, how fast can we capture this digital artifacts and support your hypothesis, support the hypothesis from a past to future perspective. So that's in a nutshell, what is driving me to actually do my own startup right now, Pulse, which helps companies focus on, you know, how do you line up resourcing to the profitability. But even if when you are in a larger organization, your capability to collect data sets very rapidly is extremely critical. So that's what I can do.

 

George Kamide:

That's brilliant. Yes. I liked that. I like being able to get to the drill down to the ground level as fast as possible to validate.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Number four. And this is where, you know, the security and the compliance community can do a fantastic job. Right? So one of the things that tends to happen is one, you know, the biggest obstacle to getting access to data. I mean, people have concerns, right? There's a control issue that are, you know, you're authorized, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But a lot of times the data set is coming from multiple sources, whether you are within the large organization or whether you're operating across organizations. So how do you essentially collect data set without, you know, letting people be concerned about it? So how do you provide the right access controls? How do you actually have the right permission controls on the data set that you're using? And if you need to anonymize it, you gotta be in a position to anonymize it. So the pace at which you are able to essentially pull the insight is very critical. And sometimes what tends to happen, I'm going into the weeds of implementation. You know, the privacy of that dataset or whether You have rights to actually access data becomes an issue. And that becomes one of the biggest hurdles when you are actually driving innovation.

 

George Kamide:

Uh this sounds like something very similar to what we've seen is that you have entire parts of an organization whose remit and mandate is to innovate, go fast, chase growth. But they never consult with security or compliance, which inevitably steps into apply the brakes because they, they are paid to mitigate risk. So it, it sounds like if those teams were brought in earlier in the consultative manner, at least they would know what's coming. Instead of one day, they get this request for data that they that's what they don't understand. They don't contextualize, like, why are you asking for this? Or why do you need this?

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Absolutely, I think the reality for most corporate environments, at least what I've seen out here is as you go through this process, you are looking for tons and tons of analysis and a data set is there. But a lot of times getting access to the data set is a challenge. And then if you really think about it, right these companies need to make policies around, you know, having security, compliance baked into how they grow the business to your point, right? Things will become a lot easier for innovators if data and security is baked into their model. And if you really look into the security team, right, the security team has tons and tons of traditionally and a whole bunch of incidences that you're, they're doing a triage with. I mean, it's like, you know, thousands and thousands prior priorities. How did the prioritize maybe top 5%, maybe top 10%. And by the way, those are very focused on certain regulatory issues tied to that industry. Like if it's aircraft, you know, retail environment, it's PCI PII, right?

 

Vikrant Karvir:

If it is HIPAA, like that's a subset, the larger issues are actually, you know, revenue, data, salary, data, I mean a whole bunch of other issues that may not fit into your traditional compliance model. So how do you have a model in which their definition of security and privacy is broad enough? Number one, number two, that model is built into your business processes that, you know, support other line of business functions across functions, Dave, and to do what they need to do. And security comes enabler. I think it's a critical thing. So that's a little bit of a seminar.

 

George Kamide:

That sounds great. Let's turn to your new project.

 

Ashley Stone:

We'd actually love to hear about the project that you're currently working on. You mentioned that your start up a little bit before, but can you tell us about it? It's pretty incredible.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Absolutely, would love to. So conceptually, what, what we finding out here is you know, every company on the planet these days is becoming a software driven enterprise. So you have essentially mid cap companies, you know, which are growing at a very fast space and they're predominantly software companies or SaaS companies or data services companies. And then you even, you have the larger conglomerates of the world, right? The Tesla is the Fidelities is they're building up separate business unit, focused on digitalization and driving online revenues, conceptually what's happening in this environment, especially in the last five years as this trillion dollar economy, which is online economy is growing at 20% year over year growth rate, as it is growing at this rapid rate, especially in the five years, the pace at which software features and functionality is actually released to the market has gone up almost like 20 X. And the teams not only are distributed, but nowadays with the concept of cloud and agile everyone is multitasking. And then the, the software and the way the software is essentially being delivered, it actually looked like a complex fabric. And the simple problem that most of these environments have is more than half of the software services or data services or applications that are launching to the external marketplace is not hitting that revenue or the usage mark.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

And what tends to happen is people resourcing followed by infrastructure. Resourcing never gets freed up. So the GMs of these organizations, the executives of this organization, first one to establish a complete transparency between what is happening on the demand side, which is essentially customers, revenue usage of the software, and connect that to the supply side, which is essentially in a product engineering operations and support number one, number two, they want to essentially take the resourcing away from non-value services, non-revenue driving products, and actually align them to high value products. And number three, our care is they want to essentially measure what is happening in terms of quality, right there, there's a lots of signals that customers give, but they never get fed systematically into the supply or the development operation that scaling of the organizations. And then there are other facets to it. So this is the problem statement that this new venture is targeting and what we realize in order to actually solve this problem. We need to build up a different type of backend, a backend, which is very similar to some of the organizations like LinkedIn and Facebook have, which is essentially a mining resourcing graph infrastructure, which has also time series analysis built into it. So we building a different kind of a moment to model these type of scenarios. Sorry.

 

Ashley Stone:

That's great. So you're, you're saying you're trying to understand, take all this information and then figure out what products are working. And what's not, what's feeding that bottom line.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Bingo. So simple outcomes that is environment wanders. They may have their revenues might be a hundred million dollars to $10 billion. Their team size is maybe a hundred to 5,000. What they want to know is how is the portfolio product and how each individual product, maybe 25 products are 2,500 products, how each one of them is doing on usage revenue, and for each product, what do the resourcing across the three functions? What does the cost look like? Number one, number two is what they want to know is okay. I wanted to also track essentially the growth features in this product because for these organizations, what, when they put more R & D the stock price goes up, so they want to track how much R & D is going. And if the maintenance or the technical debt on this product is increasing, then they need to flag it. Number three the scale and velocity blocks are security issues actually from customers. They never get built up into essentially this resourcing model. So having essentially literally a dashboard where all of this comes through and they can operationalize it within the team, that's the product we are building.

 

Ashley Stone:

That's incredible.

 

George Kamide:

Yeah, that is just to, sorry. I took a moment to try and visualize the fabric graph.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

If you look at the visuals, it's actually a collection of infinite points. Um and the team that is building has, you know some of the guys actually came from NASA and air force. So a lot of this is essentially, you know, next generation infrastructure, but there's a lot of essentially business IP modeling that we're also doing on how do we actually model it is to digitize their enterprises.

 

George Kamide:

And I think this comes back to this is kind of on the supply side and like the creation side, but basically, well, it's the, it's a different side of the same problem, which is that the technology is adopted at such a quick rate, that there isn't a lot of time to reflect on either in your case production or on where we work on the investment in that technology. It's just like acquiring channels, acquiring technology and focused on the vision of growth or whatever, but not taking the time to then self-analyze. Like, is this worth the investment? Did we just sort of bolt a shiny object onto the enterprise? That's right. Yeah.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

So actually collecting data sets from multiple channels, we've got, there's so much attraction. And then in that, I think what you guys do is not only capture the infraction, but also understand where the exposure points are?

 

George Kamide:

Right.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

How do you mitigate the risks around it, which is what you guys do, right. Yeah. And from our standpoint, one part of that is that, and how do you essentially operate on it? How do you operationalize it with the team that is actually building it out?

 

George Kamide:

Yeah. I want to return to this notion of timing, being critical to innovation and kind of creating demand at those critical moments. And so you spoke a little bit about being able to recognize the signals and then being able to validate it very quickly so that you can move fast in terms of you spoke about the, the sort of ancillary signals, but is there a way that you have of recognizing that demand very clearly like a litmus test that you use or dare I say, a Rosetta stone for deciphering the demand?

 

Vikrant Karvir:

I think I, I think I would say the investor community in Silicon Valley is fairly sophisticated. I think that's fair to say that that's a fairly sophisticated in that, you know, truly assessing whether entrepreneurs have a good handle on what the demand is and where the demand could be. I mean, conceptually, the way I see this so part of it is essentially truly understanding which persona truly cares about the pain point that you're solving. Everyone talks about that. It's kind of hard to do. [inaudible] So it requires you to be brutally honest and not drink your Kool-Aid. So that's one part of it. Number two is it's also critical to understand what additional personas are influencing that decision. So that's one part of it. The second part of it is essentially, if you are generating value, if you're generating value, there are two parts to the value creation.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

One is, you know, someone who actually uses what you're building and someone who actually consumes it. And what I'm trying to say is, as an innovator, you may be a big company, or you may be a startup you're building products, but the consumption is happening. But for the consumption to happen, there are people who will actually use it on a day to day basis. And then there are people who will essentially consume that and make essentially a larger decision. So as a, as an innovator, you have to figure out, are you solving a hundred thousand dollar problem? Are you solving a multimillion dollar problem? And sometimes the answer is both. So you have to essentially have a simple strategy, but you're going to make it easy for the people who are going to consume it easy to use. And then the people who are going to write the checks essentially easier to essentially justify the checks, which brings to this question that you asking is if that is value, then the people who are writing the checks, right?

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Not the people who are adopting, but the people you've got to be in a position to say, Hey, you know, how much value and how much investment are you going to make in this new capability? And there's nothing wrong. I mean, that's the hardest part, sometimes internal innovators or external innovators have a hard time doing it. That's not to be confused essentially with driving adoption, everyone understands, you've got to drive wide adoption in this day and age, but there has to be a value. And it has to be, you know, coming straight with what you're delivering.

 

George Kamide:

I like that idea of a multilayered game that you have to play because the end user is saving hundreds of thousands of dollars or gaining it. But the person who signs the checks has to be able to see how quickly can I ingest the data and make a decision that moves a ship rather than just like a boat, you know, just like, like a really big change or a functional capability that they've ever had before.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

That's right. Yeah.

 

Ashley Stone:

That's great. So how do you actually support a champion to take advantage of this new opportunity? If you've got the demand, they know it's there, how do you actually get them to, to take advantage of it?

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Um I think it's a great question. I'll just reflect on my own experience. What does actually work is taking the concept and literally building a prototype on it. And what happens is this happens, this is especially true. If you are trying to go into a white space or if you're innovating on a space where the existing paradigms don't match up. What I found is there's only, you know, so much dialogues, white boarding and power pointing, you can do.

 

George Kamide:

Truth.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Um and the other part that I think, you know that innovators can do a great job of is not trying to, or design the system, but actually focus on the inputs and outputs, ultimately it's inputs and outputs at the end of the day. Um so first step is essentially see if you can short circuit and build up some sort of like whatever it is that you're building up a prototype, a fast prototype to actually get reactions on it. Number two is essentially understand who actually will use that prototype in different moments and what the, essentially the next set of features for that prototype would be number three is have value based conversations early on in this do not be, do not hesitate. It's okay to actually ask value based concepts. And how much are you going to play? You know, how much are you going to use? Why would you want this? Actually, it's a very critical for entrepreneurs and innovators within large companies to ask the tough question upfront, Hey, you want this? Why would you want it? There are 15 other options in the market. There are 15 other ways in which you could potentially solve. It helped me understand why you think this is the right thing. And if the person on that side wants, this is not able to come up with a clean answer, then better go and talk to 15 other people and see if 15 other people have a better answer, because you don't want to go for something which is like, kind of nice to have.

 

George Kamide:

Right. I think that, that sounds very much like the validation.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

It's validation, right? So it's a validation. Number one, I, if that's what you're looking for, the second part out here is then you got to essentially figure out, you know, if you build up this category, what are the market trends? Because that's the part of the timing. I mean, you can build up the best gadget, the best gizmo, the best software, but if you don't have the market, what are you going to do? You're going to sit out there, right. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Are you with the wind or against the wind? So that's a part of the timing and then you need data set to support it, and then you need to evangelize it.

 

George Kamide:

Great. I wanna also return to this notion of being present. So just as, as a personal habit, what are some things that you do to quiet that noise to, you know, is it a daily practice or is it a habit that you've developed? How do you tune out the stuff that makes you more open to hearing the, the critical signals?

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Sure. you know, so, like I said, I've made lots of mistakes right. In my career. Right.

 

George Kamide:

But, but importantly, we've learned from them, we learn from them. Right.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Otherwise we won't be out here. Right, right. Uh so I'll go up from bottoms up right. Basic thing. Right. Basic 101, a lot of times when you're interacting with people, I'm getting, I'm talking just basic 101, when you have teams, customers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, just process on, you know, focus on listening to what they're seeing and where they're coming from. It's actually very important to understand where people are coming from. It sounds so basic, but so very true. It's you know, so understanding someone's context is very critical. Number one, number two is to get to that state of mind. What I do actually is, you know, I find activity in which I can focus 200% on, right? So sometimes physical activity like workouts, outdoors meditation, I think these things kind of help lock in, calming the mind. So that's number one. Number two is everyone is ambitious.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Everyone is ambitious and everyone has big goals. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't work. So the philosophy that I think works a lot when I talk to my peer group with entrepreneurs is you can absolutely be ambitious. You can have absolutely good goals fantastic goals and all that. And everyone has a first or second lucky runs, but to do it on a sustained basis, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And so when you are in the marathon or the business of innovation marathon, what tends to happen is you need to essentially not worry about what's going to happen tomorrow, or what's going to happen six months from now, but you're tracking exactly what you thought you would be doing and not.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

So that's, that's a lot, a lot of the nights, my point out here that I'm going with, this is what I find my peer group and myself do the best is, your capacity to hyperfocus number one. And your capacity to hyper deliver in that present moment actually creates a huge difference on whether or not you will actually make it past this phase into the next phase.

 

George Kamide:

That's right. Okay.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

And obviously the conventional wisdom about, you know, goals, blah, blah, blah, blah, that all holds. But those two things are super critical.

 

George Kamide:

And it's possible to be held hostage to your goal six months from now to the detriment of what you need to get done today. Yeah. Right. Yes. I'm intrigued by the listening aspect. Again, the easy things are the hardest to do.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

They are the hardest.

 

George Kamide:

Um I was heard an interesting take on listening and it was like, don't when you enter a conversation and a conversation is an opportunity to explore another person's mind. So don't spend the conversation waiting for your chance to say what you want to say or, or looking for the counter argument that you can do. You know? So I, I take that be present both, you know, critical for life, but evidently critical also for business.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

It is, if I may right on this one, I know you might be running. In a large environment it's very hard, especially in the larger moment. A lot of times there are conflicting points of view. And often times the perception is that whoever essentially has bigger voice gets to say more and it kind of creates-- I've seen it for myself in my own career path. It kind of creates a paradigm that you want to an listen, what I find is in the short run, it might give you benefits in the long run. I don't think it helps. Right. Because ultimately you will need all those other people to, you need other people, your peer group, you need your tribe. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

George Kamide:

Great. Well, we're, we're wrapping up, but the last question here is something that a lot of people face both in the innovation front among our clients among just about anyone adopting a new technology. There's a lot of decision making. We've talked about getting stakeholder buy in. What about day two? Right. It's like, all right, we've got everybody on board. We've got the technology. We've implemented it. Now what? That's sort of the question that I'm interested to hear your take on in terms of how do you then develop the processes to, to use it in a reliable manner, et cetera.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

It's actually a great question, right? Because data is when the real life starts. Right. So and you know, usually what I've seen is not many of us actually think about data. So that's number one. And data almost requires you to truly understand, I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but they do truly requires you as an innovator to understand the whole life cycle in which you're fitting your new product or service number one. And number two, how the consumption of that product across different stakeholder organizations is going to happen. And then as you think through it, it's a logical process. Sometimes you have to follow, you have to have some institutional domain, you have to talk to people, but you have to understand what the flow. Many of us don't do it. I have not done it rigorously, but then you're forced to do it. Cause if you don't do it, you got into issues. And there are some pretty obvious things that show up in that one in day two, one of the pretty obvious stuff is essentially among other things that I've seen is basic usability of products. Another pretty obvious stuff. And that becomes a big blocker is someone has an issue on privacy. How do you, I mean, this is especially true of data driven businesses, where, where, who gave you what, what am I looking for?

 

Vikrant Karvir:

And then, you know, and they do the, you know, the, you know, the fire drill and the firestorm start happening. And then, you know, you kind of find it, you find yourself back to day zero minus two. So you know, I think if I have to say it, you know, basic things is like usability, security, compliance you know, creating through essentially what your product is exposing and how you're going to condense it because people don't have time and bandwidth are some of the critical things that tend to be overlooked from day two perspective.

 

Ashley Stone:

That's great. That's great insight, really helpful to remind people it's about privacy and security alongside innovation.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Yes, absolutely. That goes hand in hand. Yeah.

 

George Kamide:

Great. Well, thank you very much for the time. We have loved it out here in SF. It's also brilliant to, to meet people who are the ones that we will read about in the magazines the entrepreneurs, the ones driving the change, and very grateful for you sharing your experiences as well. Thank you.

 

Vikrant Karvir:

Thank you. Thank you. Both of you. Okay. Thanks so much. Thank you.